I'm having huge trouble getting the same sound from the final release as from the beta (the version with the first GUI, aka 3 EQ knobs on black background, think it's beta 10a, not sure though). The beta seems to have differenc 'compression' characteristics. It works more pleasingly with the transients than the final release :(. I've tried to do a blind test with my girlfriend and a fellow audio enthusiast and the beta won every time.
I'm trying still to figure out how to set the knobs in the final version. The 'gain' knob on the beta was always at '0', that is, far left. For most tests we used the first tube algoritm and the last (5xxx and 70xx something). The lowmid bass responce is also different in the beta and final version and again, unfortunately the blind test team favoured the beta.
Any recommendations for settings that work closest to the beta version?
Sofar the closest has been P V between -10 and -12db and P I at about -10db.
I've tried it on lots of different material, simple solo instruments to complete drum tracks. DnB to hardcore techno to simple rock and some heavier stuff (D tuned guitars and screaming vocals.. uh metal? :) ).
Ps. Seems like I get too attached with the betas as this is the second time I find a beta better than the final.. (last time it was polysquasher).
duh, not much information 'why' the beta sounds better. I'll try to describe:
The following is true for algorithms 5xxx something and 70xx something (aka first and last in the menu). Both plugins were running at HIGH quality, EQ off in beta and 'gain knob' at far left, aka '0' (btw. either I'm hearing weird things or something but in the beta it sounds different when EQ is switched on, even without touching any settings).
Beta seems to have a more 'complex' feel. It feels a little like a compressor working a tiny amount too slow for the transients. It somehow 'rides' the transients in a nice pleasing way. It simply makes the head nod in time with the music. This is missing from the final version, kind of.. it's still there but the transient 'riding' is faster, aka there is no 'smearing' or pulling the tracks/transients together. Also, the beta deals better with quick successive transients. I have a complex kick drum track (think Christina Aguilera's "Geanie in a bottle", but not as cheeky ;) ) trancy beat that the beta enchances whereas the final release makes worse (no matter how much I tried!). Somehow the beta makes the mix 'clearer' and you can hear the kick drums easier and with more definition whereas the final release muddies up the mix and makes it 'too busy'.
Low-mids sound different in the beta than in the final release. It seems the corner frequency has shifted a little. It feels a little more 'boxy' now than before. The beta gives a very subtle 'loudness curve' kind of feel where as the final release wants me to grab an EQ and reduce -0.5db of 260 to 300hz and 500 to 600hz.
I can bounce some tracks if you want and send them as .wav files if you want (once I'm at school that has a fast connection).
All these feelings are highly subjective and that's why I wanted atleast a second opinion from a friend of mine (my girlfriend did the blind test, she couldn't really hear any differences) and he also preferred the beta, every time over the final release and the original.
Hope this clarifies the stuff we heard/felt (sometimes it's more a gut feeling than direct hearing.. though it's definately connected to hearing :) ).
"Ps. Seems like I get too attached with the betas as this is the second time I find a beta better than the final.. (last time it was polysquasher)."
I admit that this has happened to me several times as well. Especially with Elephant. It initially was a direct and simple competitor to Waves L2 (same basic control structure), but I'm ashamed to admit that I now find Elephant rather ambiguous. I liked the earlier beta's performance best, and haven't been able to duplicate it's sound in most cases. Ah well...
In most cases experiences like 'beta was better' are not really useful from my point of view. First of all, I'm creating products that have to please most users, and I have to choose some 'averaged' combination. From this point betas are much worse than the release. You should understand that I perform many test cases and usually spend dozens of hours for sound testing alone, including comparisons to competing products. The problem with betas is that they may sound good in some cases, only: beta may sound good in 60% of cases, roughly, but I have to increase that figure to at least 80-90%.
In the end I have to be sure I'm selling what I think is as good as I could get. I can't simply follow some comments like 'that beta was better' because I don't feel like it was totally good. At best, I can review the beta and include some parts of it into the next release.
So, I'm sorry if the release disappoints you in some aspects. But as you may guess it is me who has to stand critique.
No offence meant at all. I try to be as constructive as possible and I do understand that there has to be a middle road in the end. But in some cases it's good to point out when a creation might have gone in a direction that isn't nessesarily better when considering the original direction. You are the creator so of course you decide ultimately what you want and how you want to have it. I've also tried to test the betas on a very wide palette of sound even though I mainly work with electronic music and hiphop at the moment.
In the case of Warmifier, the beta really does sound superior (IMHO) in 95% of the cases mainly because of the way it handles transients. However, I do not have a 100% accurate monitoring system (Genelec 1029's with matching subwoofer through Behringer DDX3216 digital mixer in a not so ideal small flat's living room) which might render my diagnosis invalid but I double check on a pair of extremely familiar headphones (akg K240) and I'm pretty familiar with the room too.
I liked the more subtle side of Warmifier whereas I see the majority of people seem to want a more easy-to-hear effect. The reason I started this thread is that I feel we are at a time in history where desktop systems can finally provide some extremely high quality processing and you, Aleksey, are a MAJOR player in this game at the moment :). Bless your ears man.. trust me, it's not common among people who know DSP/C++/ASM inside and out.
Of course I've been talking all day and bugged you about plugins and still not paying for any and I admit it, I am a little ashamed of that but rest assured, I do have some cash waiting to be parted with. I really do respect your efforts in bringing quality audio to the people and at a very affordable price. The problem is, I'm a very picky guy and I usually buy stuff only when I'm atleast 95% satisfied with it and right now there are a couple of other companies (sonalksis - the compressor, discoDSP - Vertigo, Magix - samplitude) that are competing for my money but once the smoke clears we'll see..
Anyways, I hope to try some more versions of warmifier, whatever direction it takes it'll be worth it.. (btw. Polysquasher 1.2 finally satisfies me more than that old beta 'e' version hehe.. I love the new 3rd mode so that it's a sure buy, unless the sonalksis compressor kills it but I think it will be simply different).
Cheers and DO take a brake every now and then, ok? :)
This is interesting !
Which hardware should I use the silver-face panel limiter or the black-face one? Which software should I use the beta 1.0c limiter or the release 1.1 version ?
OK - very cool ! Different versions sometimes with different characters for different sounds.
Not meant to create a versioning nightmare for Aleksey - an older version is in concrete. If I need the characters from 2 different 'models' then I just have to run 2 in series.
Hmmm - I've kept all my old ones - time to dig for treasure I think !
tronam - do you remember which Elephant version you felt was 'The Best' - I want to try it ! Thanks
Cool thread bManic - I didn't really think about it but I've noticed the character of plugs change from different beta versions (models) thru to the final release. Elephant and Polysquasher were the easiest to hear so far.
Btw, I've decided to buy your stuff now anyways, just got a quick job that gives me an extra 100$ so I can easily afford some stuff now.. would it be possible to get a non-crippled beta upon purchase of warmifier? I'd be happy to use it as it is even with the non optimized CPU usage and the bugs (EQ bugs some but I never use it). Also, is it possible to suggest another bundle.
Squeeze It All Bundle
Any price suggestion? :) That's the bundle I'd like.
I'm sorry Aleksey. I would never want to suggest that you ever sacrifice quality at any stage of the process as you refine your plugins. It's not really anyone's problem but my own. Maybe it's just human nature to get attached to one kind of sound and when it changes, you continue to long for what you were first exposed to. In the case of Elephant, I think my tendencies to prefer the original betas stem from my own limitations. The more variables that are introduced, the more time is consumed learning how to incorporate them properly and I tend to reach for something else instead. I liked the 1.0b era because it provided an L2-like simplicity, but with an excellent overall limiting algorithm that outclassed the L2 (software version) in my opinion. Some of the most heavily used and admired hardware effects were like this. Great quality, yet simple to use. I no longer find the new versions of Elephant easy to use (at least with conficidence), so I reach for something else. I think this is one of the reasons why the L2 is so insanely popular.
PS: Maybe there is a way to mimic the 1.0b settings with 1.3 and I could create a preset?
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